I can’t decide whether Christians are cowards, or atheists have the hearts of lions.
Maybe neither is true, but looking from my position of skepticism, one or the other is likely to become true for me.
It took this episode of Scrubs to force me to really take a look at what I believe about death. Sure, in all likelihood I have 50-60 more years ahead of me, but the question of life after death is inextricably linked to the question of our existence.
I have major questions about the truth and validity of Christianity right now, and that makes this all the scarier for me. I’ve always been so sure about death, about where I was going, but lately that has all been called into question.
Maybe there is no after-life. Maybe this is all there is, three-score and ten, and I’ll cease to exist, nothing but worm-food, dust and earth.
Maybe Heaven is out there. It could be as the Christians say it is, for those with unwavering faith in God, a continuation of a relationship on earth; God’s friend now, God’s friend forever. Alternatively, it could be more inclusive, but it’s anybody’s guess as to the standard of entry.
Maybe I face hell. For doubting to the point where I don’t care much for Christianity any more, thinking of the tie within me as little more than a psychological dependence.
[On a side note, this is not a matter of "my hopes and fears" negating logic; God, eternity and existentialism are very real and logical concepts unless the laws of physics are to be discarded. So my questions are legitimate.]
I don’t see how this is fair, being forced to make some sort of existential decision based on conjecture, bravery, and / or cowardice. Even if I decided that I don’t believe in all the Jesus stuff, I doubt my ability to pack it all in, for fear of eternal punishment. Yet how can I just believe, when to do so now would feel like cowardice and a betrayal of my own conscience?
What episode of Scrubs (I couldn’t get the link to work).
Sounds like you’ve got lots of questions at the moment, and hey, how can we have faith without questions?
And just noticed the link to QMonkey – so it’s through yourself that this blogger found my blog…but I guess that’s what my blog was started for. To share my thoughts and be open to discussion and comment.
The link appears to be working for me. Season 8, Episode 2. Series 8 started in the US.
I didn’t realise QMonkey was off his leash, worrying the sheep (I’m sure he’d appreciate the use of the word sheep)!
Faith is an interesting concept. The argument I put forward would be “why is faith necessary at all”? Why isn’t God a surety, something we can know for absolutely certain every day? Would that not be better, giving us more of a fair choice about whether to follow Jesus or not, knowing without a shadow of a doubt that he is who he claims he is? Then we could make our decision accordingly.
I think I know for sure God is there. We know Jesus was around, but is he the messiah (that’s where faith comes in – cos we weren’t there….and we’re relying on hand-me-down stories and historical documents to back it all up)
I think the faith comes in trusting Him, and trusting that the bible hasn’t all been a big massive conspiracy for 1000s of years.
What is an example of something that is a surety?
“I think I know for sure God is there”
I’m afraid that’s a contradiction in terms!
I understand the Bible says “blessed is he who believes and has not seen”, but I’m not asking where faith is required, I’m asking why it’s required – what’s the point? Is it not a poor plan on God’s side? Why isn’t Jesus more solid and tangible?
Zoomtard – I would say a surety is something that can be known beyond reasonable doubt. For example, that this cheese on toast is nourishing my system in some way. Sure, one can doubt the existence of the cheese on toast; one can doubt the feelings of pleasure from my tastebuds, and the (almost) full feelings in my stomach. But I can be sure to a significant degree of the existence and benefit of my lunch.
@Alastair.
You’re so pernickety! Sigh! lol. Ok…I’m 99.99999999% sure. (there sometimes is that wee tiny question that wonders if all this is real, but that goes for pretty much everything and it’s more to do with my tendency of paranoia and over-thinking).
But I don’t know. I guess if we’d lived back then He would have been. But we didn’t. That’s such a sucky answer I know. I don’t think anyone has the answer to that. Which is annoying.
Zoomtard, you are playing that game that all ‘faith’ people play. The ‘we don’t really KNOW anything, so anything could be true’ game.
Surety is a mater of scale. It’s why atheist bus people choose to have the word ‘probably’ on their ad, and would do so even if they were saying there’s ‘probably’ no lepricons. It’s intellectualy invalidating to believe something 100% without question.
On the scale… we have more evidence that Obama is president of the USA than we have that Jesus existed (never mind was god)? More evidence that babies are born as a result of intercourse etc. You’d agree, I hope. We don’t need faith for these things, we have evidence instead.
Ms Koala … sorry, I do tend to surf blogs when bored … I liked yours, so commented
You are ‘sure’ about more than you should be. 2/3rds of the world think that the jesus stories are nonsense. Of the other 1/3, 11/12% (apparently) were taught (indoctrinated with) it as fact from childhood… of those living in ‘Christian countries’ 11/12 apparently… agree with the 2/3rd of the world, that the Jesus stories are nonsense.
Don’t be too sure of surety.
11 out of 12 , as opposed to 11 or 12%.
i only saw one survey saying this actually… must admit. and have repeated it since 
A show of hands on a Sunday morning would concur i think.
@Qmonkey – it’s totally cool, that’s what my blog is there for. Well, partly. Sometimes its just an outlet for my ranting I think! You are welcome to read and comment on my blog any time you like!!
I think I’ve got plenty paranoia (ask pretty much any of the people who know me ‘in real life’), and I’ve seen too many miracles, had too many experiences that I have no other explanation for, and too much has fallen into place for me to be an atheist.
I went to sunday school twice in my whole life, and to be honest it didn’t mean anything. I just enjoyed playing games in colouring in pictures! At primary school there was a huge muslim community because I lived in an area with many immigrants and refugees from the Yugoslavian war. So I learned more about islam than I did about Christianity really. At high school, again, we didn’t learn about Christianity. My only Christian friend in high school didn’t share her beliefs with me because she got beaten up (literally) for them. And she was well aware of my thoughts on Christianity – which I think were pretty much the same as yours are at the moment.
PS – of course there’s more evidence of Obama – he’s present and alive now in an age of higher technology and information overload.
And I’m not going to do something or believe something just because a ton of other people are doing it. So the statistics of who believes what don’t really matter to me. It’s like my mother always said ‘if they all jumped off a cliff, would you do it too?’
the point of my statistics (if we can call them that!) are to say… its obviously not ‘obvious’. ask yourself why not? it easily could be, if god wanted it to be… it could be as obvious if not more so than obama.
I’m kind of with QMonkey on the “it could be obvious” thing. I mean, if it’s better this way, then I wouldn’t argue (or maybe I’d find a way). But if the Bible’s account of the afterlife is true – in particular, hell – then surely as God, it makes much more sense to make yourself fully known to every human, so to avoid that eventuality?
A Muslim child growing up in Saudi or a Hindu teen in mumbia has great surety that their deities and related texts are true. For them, the hand seems to fit the glove, it doesn’t bother them that most of the world disagrees. It’s as obvious as day follows night. They roll there eyes and smirk when you talk about Jesus in the same way you might about Allah or indeed unicorns or King Arther.
You really saying that they’re going to hell? And need to decide in their head, that yes, Jesus was real, and he did magic stuff, and was in fact god… in order to truly know god and a full life? Remember its unfair to expect others to be convinced by a level of evidence for your religion… which wouldn’t convince you of theirs, if it were reversed. In any case, their decision on jesus would be/should be totally cognitive.. based on evidence.. therefore it will be dependant on their intellegenge/schooling/upbrining. Fair?
QMonkey,
Only your reference to hell gave me the indication you were talking to me. Your point is valid, and another reason why I would suggest that Jesus should be make himself more obvious, for the benefit of those who will never experience a ‘Christian culture’, not having an opportunity to even consider Jesus.
I’m not trying to convince anyone else. I’m trying to reconcile my beliefs, experience and intellect.
And as a final point, which you have spent a lot of time underlining in the time we’ve been discussing matters, it depends what you mean by “totally cognitive”. Rationalisations are largely not available for love, laughter, depression, these states and emotions are part electrical reactions, and part unexplainable. I am looking to satisfy my intellect as far as possible, with reasoning about our existence; prospects of intelligent design; the potential morality of god in how he has presented himself and how he treats his subjects; evidence for an involved creator, or a watchmaker. However, at times the world around us and within us is fundamentally irrational.
Like I say, I’m trying to work out where I stand, not tell others where to stand. I’m not trying to convince the world of my experiences, but if I, or anyone else had a ‘road to Damascus’, St Paul incident, then your rationalising is technically useless against the strength of personal experience, to the person directly affected.
Its cognitive in the sense that… one must be convinced that some suggested historical events litterally happened as reported. In the same way we dismiss the claims of the Koran.
Everything else flows from that.
love, laughter and depression arn’t cognitive… but i think that’s irrelevant. assessment of fact – is cognitive, and rational. i have to correctly assess that Jesus was god, based on the evidence or i cant be a Christian. If there is a god, i dont want to fall for any of the scores of wrong god claims… i have to assess jesus with the same stringency i assess mohammad.
one can get into all sorts of trouble and false cults/sects/religions if we although other non-rational feelings, such as hope and fear to influsance our assessment of what are pure and simple – historical factual claims
@Qmonkey – I wasn’t trying to convince or convert, just kind of wanted to say, that I’m not someone who got brainwashed or brought up into Christianity in the way you seemed to describe. I was looking into all sorts of stuff for answers during my teenage years before I ‘became a Christian’.
For sure, I share my experiences – it’s my story, and well, it’s all part of my life and I like to talk a lot…
I have some of the same questions as Alastiar – why doesn’t God make himself so obvious to everyone?
Koala, i was talking in general terms, not about your specific experience.
>>why doesn’t God make himself so obvious to everyone?
and why does god make it obvious to the 8 yr old Muslim that Allah is god and Mohammad is his prophet?
Jesus being god is plainly NOT obvious. you just really really believe it to be so. im thinking you have rituals to inforce and solidify this belief? do you ever pray, or sing praise or gather together regulary with other believer to talk about how wonderful and loving the leader is?
Sorry QM, I added a final point in my previous comment as an edit that you may not have seen, you were quick to respond!
Gun to my head, I fully believe in a creator. The workings of the universe, down to the workings of my body, are testament to that, I believe.
The question of Jesus’ divinity is indeed a more cognitive decision. Whether or not you believe the account of Paul’s conversion is irrelevant, the point is that if someone had that strong a conviction, you could not convince them otherwise with ‘cognitive reasoning’. It appears that Paul’s fervent attacks on Christianity stemming from his intellectual Jewish upbringing would have put pay to anyone ‘convincing’ him that Christianity was true or Judaism had missed the boat.
So… I disagree, I believe the lack of empirical knowledge about the world around us is relevant. While it is no evidence for Jesus, it can be construed as an argument for a creator. I understand that we will develop in the fields of science and begin to reconcile things we don’t understand, and it is dangerous to label certain things we don’t understand ’supernatural’. Some explanations may always defy us though – for example, the science of fine tuning(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fine-tuned_universe), or the Newtonian contradiction that electrons can been observed to be in two separate places at the same time (http://www.physorg.com/news7144.html), or why light defies Newtonian mechanics.
>>Gun to my head, I fully believe in a creator. The workings of the universe, down to the workings of my body, are testament to that, I believe.
As opposed to natural selection? Do you think the human body is a perfect creation… would a truly all powerful loving god not have created it a bit better? Would he have created a worm that can only survive and feed its offspring by burrowing into the eye of an afrian child? Would he have allowed Alzimers to exist so that my christian/preacher granda couldn’t even remember that he was a christian or who jesus was, for the last 10 years of his life?
First cause/creator arguments are interesting and I certainly don’t close the door on that, but that’s a million million miles away from … a creator who is benignly active and interested in humanity.
>>… the point is that if someone had that strong a conviction, you could not convince them otherwise with ‘cognitive reasoning’.
Definitely… Jonathan Swift said, you cannot reason someone out of an belief which they wernt reasoned into. I agree.
>>>> It appears from Paul’s fervent attacks on Christianity stemming from his intellectual Jewish upbringing would have put pay to anyone ‘convincing’ him that Christianity was true or Judaism has missed the boat.
Even if the biblical accounts of Paul are to be accepted (which they arnt) his views are his views, his beliefs are his beliefs … you should give him as much weight as any other religious swami or teacher or cult leader. Your default position on any proposed god/messiah/miracle is exactly the same as mine, in that you assume it didn’t happen until convinced other wise. Either god gives you an undeniable personal revelation (ie he chooses you) OR you are empirically convinced by the evidence.
You’ve empirically assessed it to be true.. i’ve assessed it to be untrue. You are maybe smarter than me, and are going to heaven. Or maybe you are not, and I’ve passed the test and am going to heaven. or maybe theres no heaven.
@QM – Yes I pray. Yes I sing praise (heck, I’ve even ‘lead worship’ as they call it at people’s weddings!). Yes I gather together with other believers every Sunday (now commonly known as ‘going to church’) and a Tuesday (not so much singing and praying going on there – lots of great chat about well anything and everything and AMAZING food)
I also believe in a creator. And I believe in evolution. The majority of my friends who are Christians believe both too.
I also believe in free will. The reason for that I think it’s better that someone would choose to love me, than be forced to love me.
QM – what I was getting at with the ‘Damascus Road’ stuff was what Stephen Butterfield was hoping for (second to logical evidence) at the Alpha Course – some sort of experience he couldn’t write off, some sort of revelation from God that proved to him that it was true. Like the account of Paul. I’m not arguing the validity of the Acts, I could easily have used the President hearing the alien’s plan in ‘Independence Day’. I was just clarifying what I meant by an experience (as you say, an “undeniable personal experience”).
I haven’t empirically assessed it to be true, I’m still questioning that. Nor have I had an undeniable personal experience.
You make a very good point about the frailty of the human body and creation. What is the need for such destructive beings, or such weaknesses in the body? However, I would be more inclined, biased as I am, to raise questions about the nature and plan of the creator rather than suggestions of random events leading to natural selection. Not that I rule out evolution / natural selection, not at all, I simply doubt the statistical possibility of it occuring without a guiding hand.
Koala – thanks for your input. The conservative Northern Irish will be at your door shortly with torches and pitchforks. They’ll purge that belief in evolution from your soul!
@Alastair – If they do – fools!!
1. not their place to purge.
2. never mess with a koala
I’m guessing my ‘background’ would get me purged well before the fact that I don’t rule out much of Darwinian theory anyway.
i’m not so sure about the ‘guiding hand’ on evolution theory Al. i mean… its been pretty messy. because of the evolutionatory (is that a word) path to humanity … it meant that the human birth system is quite dangerous.. leading to multitudes of woman dying in childbirth and leacing their babies motherless. If god had been tweaking then he could have very simply changed the human body a bit to sort it out. It wasn’t until the last hundred years or so that WE, yes humans… worked out methods and medical practices to avoid this. God didn’t revel this to us, he let those countless women die.. while we were doing our best to use rationality and reason to work out how to help them.
a small point… but i make it to at least pour serious doubt on the “loving-powerful god’s hand on the tiller of evolution” theory.
Certainly, it adds to the heap of Christianity questions, subsection “is the Christian God really loving”.
It does perhaps lend itself to the thought of intelligent design. Also theism, since involvement would imply more than a watchmaker, blind or otherwise.
>>>It does perhaps lend itself to the thought of intelligent design. Also theism, since involvement would imply more than a watchmaker, blind or otherwise.
you meant ‘doesn’t’ didn’t you?
No, I said what I meant.
I don’t think the design element can be ruled out, even if the design isn’t perfect or “loving”. Such incredibly complex evolution on its own merit is extraordinarily unlikely, even if it is the most likely theory we have.
>>>I haven’t empirically assessed it to be true, I’m still questioning that. Nor have I had an undeniable personal experience.
In which case you have been seduced by the message. would that be fair comment? You wanted it to be true, or you feared it might be… so that lead you to a decision that it was, in fact, true. Then i guess we humans have a tendency to post rationalise our decisions.
http://qmonkey.wordpress.com/2008/08/26/hopes-and-fears/
How about I believed it because I had no reason to doubt it? I was taught it as a kid, so I always believed it to be true. The difference was no-one introduced me to the “being saved” stuff until I was a teenager.
I will happily accept arguments about kids believing because of their parents, people believing because of their culture… but you can’t pigeon-hole everyone – not me at least – into the “hopes and fears” category. As far as I’m concerned, I feared the afterlife because I believed in it, not vice versa.
you have no reason to doubt miracle claims. really?
i literally flew to work this morning.
do you have any reason to doubt that?
do Muslims have reason to doubt mohammad?
do you fear a Islamic afterlife, or a aboriginal one?
I HAD no reason to doubt, past tense. It’s what I had grown up with. To all intents and purposes, my parents were right, everyone else was wrong. And once you’re in, you’re in and biased, as you well know; I don’t fear other gods or afterlives because I’m busy fearing this one.
So looking at my situation NOW – am I afraid? Yes. Of death and the afterlife, mostly.
Am I hopeful? Yes. That God is who I want him to be, mostly.
But I hope you notice that I’m not a slave to those hopes and fears. (Part of me REALLY hopes that I can be done with this moral living, sex-free, no-drunkenness life). Nor am I a slave to my intellect, or to my emotions. I’m arguing with you because you’re sure (as you can be) that Christianity is a fabrication, and I’m arguing with Christians because they’re sure (as they can be) that logic or feeling that flies in the face of their beliefs are down to our limited understanding.
(I’m using caps in place of bold text)